Friday, 16 May 2008

Organised community retributive action

Or being a vigilante as it is sometimes called, depending on your point of view. Vigilantism is an extremely emotive topic with arguments both for and against, and there are lots of people who will vehemently fight for both sides of the coin. Personally I am undecided on the subject, as a Police officer I am of course one of the people sworn in office to uphold the law of the UK and defend those who are unable to defend themselves. The problem is that we (the Police and more importantly the criminal justice system as a whole) have been failing on the latter point with increasing and alarming regularity. Things are not as bad as they could be, but they are definitely worse than when I first joined at the beginning of the new millennium, and considerably worse than when I was a kid.

The media have always used vigilantes as a subject for comics, movies and books, one of the most recent films that come to mind is the film Outlaw with Sean Bean. If you haven’t seen it already then I would suggest watching it, it’s not brilliant but the basic story line is something that most people can relate to, especially if you happen to live in an actual non-gated, non-taxpayer funded house in a normal community. A group of guys find each other after a series of personal tragedies and they decide that enough is enough and that they should take the fight to the bad guys as the Police (of whom most can’t lay in bed straight according to the ridiculously clich├ęd Bob Hoskins character) are unwilling or unable to do anything about it. It’s not film of the century by a long shot but it did get me thinking a bit.

Long before the Police existed, communities ran themselves and the Government was a long distant figure that demanded considerably less tax than now. Judges were sent round the country on Circuits to do the court thing so that they would experience life (and crime) in many areas of the country and not just where they lived. Crime was at a level that would seem like the pearly gates compared to now. The main reason for that is people knew that they didn’t have to put up with any hassle, and if it was too big for one person to deal with, a group of them could get together to sort the problem out. Even after the Police were set in statute with the Metropolitan Police Act 1829, communities could still look after themselves and address anything up to a major issue with a bit of common sense.

Children learned that they had to respect other people or face the consequences and that they couldn’t just do what they wanted, when they wanted to do it. This was still the case when I was growing up although the wonderful fruits of the 60’s mentality of doing away with discipline and giving annoying children a hug were still growing in popularity in schools and social opinions.

Nowadays there is no way that the majority of people feel they can take it upon themselves to challenge behaviour from fear of being arrested and charged after too many cases of initial victims being arrested while the suspects are let off or even compensated. Even worse is the fear of being kicked to death in the street for asking a bunch of drunk tossers to stop smashing your car up as sadly happened to Gary Newlove, or being kicked to death for protecting your boyfriend who was attacked for no other reason than how he dressed, as happened to Sophie Lancaster.

When I was 12 we lived on an Army estate just outside a small German town, there was one main road through it with blocks of flats (fenced all the way round to stop people going into the farms on either side) and a couple of play grounds. We had German friends, some of the wives who chose to learn German worked in local shops or the Army admin buildings along with some of the locals who were employed by the Army, and for the most part everyone got along. We then started getting problems with a group of Turkish lads in their late teens to early 20’s who would come onto the estate from their own housing estate a couple of miles away.

They would pick on some of the younger kids, cause damage to cars and windows and generally cause a nuisance kicking over bins and graffiting buildings at night. For the most part, the adults would actually be able to chase them off however couldn’t do too much as it would have put the Army in a bad light. The RMP (Royal Military Police) stepped up patrols after complaints from families, although they were actually powerless to do anything. The Local German Police were also increasing patrols however due to racial tensions at the time (the 80’s saw a huge influx of Turkish migrants who were seen in much the same way as eastern European migrants are now in some areas of the UK) they were reluctant to actually do anything worth while.

Things got steadily worse over the summer with army kids getting beaten up and groups of kids throwing stones and cans at cars driving onto our estate. Then there was a big exercise and the whole battalion was away for 6 weeks, which meant there were hardly any men around. It didn’t take the gang long to realise that there was no one about to chase them off. They then came onto the estate for longer, making it virtually impossible for any of us to play outside, some of the women who worked in local shops were harassed on the way to and from work. Things came to a head when a group of 20 – 30 Turkish lads came onto the estate and went on a rampage smashing flat windows and setting the playground alight. After that we couldn’t go outside, our estate had become a no go area for the local Germans, as well as the Army families who lived there.

After the exercise our dads came home to see how bad things had gotten while they were away and one weekend we were told explicitly by our parents that we had to stay inside, no matter what. The gang came onto the estate as usual about 20 strong until something happened. Two ‘four tonners’ – army workhorse trucks – turned up and blocked the estate off at either end. No one could get out of the estate because of the fence around it. Men in combats and balaclavas were everywhere, they started to fight with anyone who wasn’t in combats, they were dropped to the floor, tied up and thrown in the trucks. Once everyone had been rounded up, the trucks drove off. The people rounded up were beaten, stripped naked and left in a field about 30 miles away from their own estate.

I lived on the estate for another two years and after that night no one ever came round again.

If that happened now there would be a massive investigation with people getting arrested for kidnap and GBH at the least and the media would be in an absolute frenzy about it. No one was arrested by the German Police or the RMP, nothing was in the local papers and no one ever admitted to being in the group who rounded them up, although everyone knew about it.

I have heard of similar things happening (although not on that scale) since I’ve been a Police officer. In a particularly rough town not far from where I live, four teenagers who were prolific car thieves and burglars caused misery to the people living in a couple of roads. They caused havoc until they were rounded up by people considerably harder than them, one managed to escape but the other three didn’t. Bricks and feet were introduced to parts of bodies that were only designed to be treated nicely and others which were essential in the control of a car.

They too, stopped for quite a while afterwards, mainly because of long hospital treatment. If they did carry on as they had, they certainly didn’t do it in those streets. There was a bit in the local paper about a gang of teenagers being viciously attacked by local men, the local councillor expressed her outrage at people taking matters into their own hands and the local divisional commander said outright that it would never be tolerated and that they would catch the offenders. To my knowledge, they didn't. I went to training school with a couple of guys who worked on the division, privately, they said everyone was well happy that it had happened. The ones beaten deserved every second and it solved the problem. They knew that all they were able to do was arrest them if they could catch them and then send them to court. Each already had a string of previous convictions and knew full well that nothing substantial would ever happen.

The main problem that society has with vigilantes, is the fear that once the problem that starts them off is sorted, that they will continue and eventually become worse than the original problem unless they stop and disband. The courts and the government will also not tolerate anyone circumventing their authority. I have known police officers who have given very serious consideration to using an unmarked van to round up and dish out a bit of social justice to specific targets, the question everyone wants to know is, would it solve anything?

Metcountymounty.

47 comments:

Deborah Parr said...

Sometimes I would really like a rocket launcher on my car, like James Bond, which I could use to blow away the stupid stupid people who cut me up, tailgate me, overtake at high speeds on wet roads on bends, etc etc etc. Also I would like to geld the rat who vandalised my car - twice.

Louise said...

I think everyone has the vigilante gene in the them...... who hasn't wanted to sort something out themselves when their angry.

Ex-RUC said...

The problem with vigilantiarism is that it is uncontrolled and unacountable. Of course, my experience is mainly that of the paramilitary IRA/UDA style punishment beatings and kneecappings but the principle still stands that the public should not take the law into their own hands, no matter how tempting that might be and no matter how laughable the criminal justice system has become.

OhOnedp said...

A bit of rough justice - not ethical but it DOES work!

blueknight said...

The existence of vigilantes is the clearest indicator that the law and justice has failed the people.
I would say that in the last 10 years most front line Police Officers have wished for a some sort of vigilante action to occur against some of their habitual hooligans.
The sort of yob who causes trouble every night with impunity and when there is enough evidence to go Court for Sec 4 POA or ABH, it is plea bargained away to Sec5 POA, Common Assault or D&D. Decent sentences would help.

Anonymous said...

It's funny how the Crown has great trouble finding prison space for scrotes who beat pensioners, but always has a cell ready when a pensioner decides to stop paying his council tax or if someone is caught being a vigilante. It's as if they're saying "we know full well we don't deserve to be in charge, but we are in charge, so don't get smart."

some bloke said...

Can't say as I'm that keen on the blokes in balaclavas scenario ( isn't that part of Ulsters ongoing problems ? ).
On the other hand, the Courts are being tied up even more with demands to let off serious villains with community sentences

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1961377/Judges-will-lose-power-to-set-prison-terms.html

So how about a bit of Judicial Community Retibutive Vigilantism by way of bringing back the Stocks.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/106575237_ad3c74555c.jpg?v=0

Brilliant ! Magistrate sets the tariff ( in days ) while the wider community determines the actual degree of torment which might range from wet sponges, rotten fruit, dog-mess or other such non-lethal projectiles as supervised by the friendly local PCSO.

No fines to avoid paying.

No wasted Prison Space.

Bit more effective than 'name and shame' ( since they are all called variants of Dwayne and have no shame ).

MOPs might think that some offenders should not be being punished at all, TV tax evaders perhaps.

TheBinarySurfer said...

In my opinion MCM, a good beating and humiliation speaks to them in their own language. They respect and fear that - it's not as good as a jury of your peers but these days i'll take what i can get.

Anonymous said...

When I was just a small girl, treated badly by some men in authority who thought that they were above the law, and untouchable; Some harder men than they were [SAS] rounded them up, gave them an army style "beasting", took them up a mountain, in Autumn, stripped them totally naked, and took all their clothes and shoes, and left them there! They were also warned to leave myself and my family alone, or else there would be worse.
It worked. They left me alone and I survived, but some had their "revenge" and smeared my name in the system's records, which was/is hurtful and damaging to me, considering what I was subjected to and survived. On balance, I have to say, that at the time Yes, the SAS taking control of the situation helped me and probably saved my life. However dealing with the effects of my enemies "revenge" smear campaign has been very difficult and distressing. Down but not out.
Ve

Miss P said...

There are definitely positive things to say about vigilantism (?) is that a word or did I just make it up..? It implies a strong community spirit, which is a good thing.


There are also very bad things to say about it too - some people are v-e-r-y s-t-u-p-i-d and go and beat people up because they look a bit like that paedo who's mug shot was published in the NOTW last Sunday. And the word vigilante always conjures up The Life of Brian for some reason.




Vigilantism (or whatever) doesn't have to be so extreme that it involves defensive violence does it? There must've been loads of communities over the years who have got together to eradicate unwanted goings ons in other more legal less controversial ways.

But does it exist in London??
I just can't see it ever happening in a social circle near me. London's so transient, AND people are so knackered by the daily grind - how when and where are you ever gonna create or find that feeling of belonging? I was born here but not brought up here - but I've lived here (various parts of north/north east L) for the past 10 years - but have I ever felt part of a 'community'? No way.

If you regularly feel threatened in your part of town by the same old local asbos what the fuck are you do about it? Knock on all the neighbours' doors and say 'Come on - let's go and fucking have 'em!'?
Maybe the old school cockney Londoners who have been around for years have ways and means, and for sure the Kurdish communities in N4 and the Chinese in Soho (for example) probably exercise retribution on a daily basis but for those types who are tempted to London for work after finishing their education, who get immersed in London life for years and years - are they ever gonna become part of a team of vigilantes? I doubt it...

Conor said...

Last month, the Brighton Argus reported a drunk driver being dragged out of his car by a passerby and beaten unconscious.
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/generalnews/display.var.2208301.0.suspected_drink_driver_badly_beaten.php
or
http://tinyurl.com/5qrwdp

Metcountymounty said...

ex-ruc - from what I know about the Troubles and the aftermath, the IRA/UDA punishment beatings were mainly a tool to rule with an iron fist so they could traffic and sell drugs/weapons completely at their discretion to raise funds for their fight, in which case the ulterior motive obviously negated their use. Please correct me if I'm wrong, a lot of my knowledge is obviously based from the army perspective having friends and family who served there but from what I've read that seemed to be the crux of it.

anon 0338 - could not agree with you more. If you try and have a go at the state they will come down on you like a tonne of bricks, but smack a veteran to the floor because he asked you to stop swearing around some kids and you can feel free to walk out of court laughing - if the CPS ever let you get there in the first place that is. completely and utterly wrong in my book.

Ve - something the army can do very very well is put someone who needs it in their place, the stripping naked bit seems to be quite effective. Apart from a bullet in the head, that has been my dads stock answer to the problems caused by people like the ones who attacked Gary Newlove and Sophie Lancaster.

miss p - London is extremely transient, however as I've worked there for a few years, the problems are the same as everywhere else, just on a larger scale. Same people commiting the same crime and getting away with it, if we gave the Met 5000 prison places for life we could clear the majority of the problems in london over a weekend.

Milton Inmate 73184 said...

I remember when I first joined the job, a young 'prolific' car thief/burglar broke into a garage. In that garage he found a rather nice motorcycle which he rode off into the sunset. Unfortunately he picked the garage and pride an joy of another, bigger 'prolific' offender who tracked him down and using 6" nails attached him to a road in the crucifix position. He was then set on fire. Lived and still has the stigmata.

I think his community punishment order paled into insignificance compared to the 'Organised Community Retributive Action' he recieved...

Anonymous said...

Tough talk. As usual.


Have you actually *done* anything though?

Metcountymounty said...

milton inmate - one word came to mind when I read that - OUCH

troll 1048 - tough talk? reading what you want again I see. No, I haven't gone out and 'vigilanted' anyone, I've seen it work as I described and asked the question whether or not it would work in reducing our rediculous crime levels if it happened more, specifically if the Police actually targetted specific people and dished out the kind of 'justice' that everyone thinks they deserve as the courts are obviously unable to suitably punish or deter crime. I also said I was undecided on whether or not it was actually a good or bad thing that can and does happen.

Now, would you like to clarify and justify your statement or just sit on the sidelines like a drunk vagrant abusing randomly and stinking of piss?

Anonymous said...

Who is this "randomly?"


You really will have to improve your rather remdial writing skills if you want a book deal too.

As for your whining - apart from the wholesale lifting of the plot from the second Dirty Harry Film ( you do seem to admit to getting rather a lot of your ideas from either screenplays or Peter Hitchens) - all you have admitted to is your complete inability to capture or control small time crims. (The bigger ones leave you totally petrified and in awe)


You have admitted to this impotence in a public foruum and stii insist that you are actually doing something worthwhile.

What exactly would that be?

Oi said...

A few idle thoughts......

The politicising of the Police and the irrational breakdown of punishment for offending is not just a problem in England. Those western countries whos justice system is based on Britains - Australia and New Zealand for example - are experiencing similar problems of punishment eluding certain ethnic groups, tardy response, [if any at all] and pitifully inadequate punishment for those crimes that are pursued as far as the courts.

A few hundred years back, the Police as we [more or less] know it came into being and the "right" of the community to apprehend malefactors and exact justice was surrendered to them and the courts.
Along with that went an expectation that Police would attend promptly and any offender apprehended would face swift and sure punishment once convicted. This no longer occurs. Police do not attend promptly. Punishment is no longer exacted. The entire justice system is failing the public now.
Since the justice system is no longer carrying out its side of the bargain, the public should therefore be able to return to extracting justice from criminals - at least until such time as the State can be entrusted with it again.

Anonymous said...

I'll put money on the vagrant stinking of piss route, myself.

Some of the rougher parts of our division police themselves to an extent. Not very well mind, they can't even shoot straight!

Nys

Anonymous said...

MCM....I am heart and soul a pacifist and hate violence, so your dad's notion of a gunshot to the head is a bit chilling and extreme. However, we do not live in a totally pink and fluffy world where everyone is good and nice. Some people are just bad and delight in doing evil and hurting others. Faced with people like that and knowing that the justice system can be a joke, some may be tempted to enforce extreme "justice" to rid society of them. In rare cases it may be justified, because good men CANNOT allow evil to flourish unchallenged.
But, as you ask, "does it solve anything?"
Good question, when one considers the workings of Karma, life, death, rebirth, an eye for an eye. Whatever wrongs we do to others in one life will be visited upon us, either in our present life or our next incarnation. Peace and Love is the answer, but there are many ignorant dark souls who don't want that. They just want to destroy everything that is good. The ultimate spiritual test really is to "love thine enemy". Tough call, especially if that enemy is violent and dangerous. Love, it is said conquers all, but I find it impossible to "love" my enemies who hurt me so much. I'm still working on forgiving the Bastards!
Because I don't want another life where I have to deal with them because of "karma", unfinished business.
Ve

Metcountymounty said...

I thought it was you Cuddles, by the way, I take it pointing out my remedial writing (and actually spelling remedial wrong) then putting 'foruum' and 'stii' was just you being ironic? you know what irony is don't you? to be of or like iron?

This may come as a surprise but I haven't actually seen any of the Dirty Harry films all the way through. I saw half of the first one about ten years ago and never got round to the others. Not really my genre, I much preferred Lethal Weapon anyway from what I saw.

The last time I checked there was certainly no impotency where I'm sitting, I guess that's a bit of projection on your part. Do you know that Viagra is available over the counter now to solve that little issue? oh hang on, you're not that old fat guy I stopped on Saturday doing a line of coke in the pub toilets with 6 of the cheeky blue pills in his pocket? you know, married with kids but looking to hook up with a 20 year old eastern European prostitute because he actually hated his life?

Laters Trollboy.

Oi - we have that very same conversation over and over at work, I think its only a matter of time before the backlash happens, my main concern is how severe does the backlash have to be before we can settle back down to a sensible state of affairs again.

Ve - After 30 years of Soldiering and serving in 5 different war zones and seeing the worst that humanity can do to itself, my dad's view of dealing with criminals who do nothing but ruin people's lives (no matter how petty their crime) are most definately shared by every other soldier I know. I personally am a big believer in Karma and am actually glad that the world isn't fair, if it was then all the bad things that happen to us would do so because we deserve it.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations - you took the bait and run true to form and certainly don't disappoint.

Now all you need is a dictionary and the ability to discover that an abstract noun - such as "impotence" for example - can have more than one meaning.

Important stuff to know. Especially with your pretensions to some kind of writing ability

Seeing as you've admitted to not being brave enough to take the tests for promotion, is writing blogs and a book deal how you see yourself escaping from the career trap of a lower echelon plod with no transferrable skills?

Bet Mrs Metcounty must love that idea eh?


....I must admit though, to mild surprise that you had the b*lls to publish anything that was even mildly critical of your preposterous, posturing hero complex.

Sheepdog? Tin Sheep more like - and I'm going to enjoy this.


Still feeling brave?

For The People said...

Vigilantism has crossed the minds of most people in the heat of the moment. However, heat of the moment incidents are usually not the time to address matters. I like you am undesided.

Metcountymounty said...

you see Cuddles, that's the kind of Trolling I don't actually mind seeing - constructive, judgemental, condescending and with just a hint of the loss of the ability to recognise sarcasm, as opposed to the run of the mill "you're a coward blah blah... go target speeders and leave burglars alone... I hate coppers because you nicked me when I was drunk and never did anything wrong etc etc"

Nice of you to roll out the Lower Echelon plod line, haven't heard that one for a while! How's the all important job that us simpletons are unable to comprehend going?

Anonymous said...

Back so very soon? - obviously the Met's webmarshal has not got your funny little site listed yet.

Though, shouldn't you really be out on the streets heroically crime busting, instead of skulking around the station mis-appropriating computer resources and surfing the net on work time, Officer?

My Job? - going well. Thanks for asking.

Metcountymounty said...

we are entitled to have days off as well, part of the joy of working a 24 hour shift pattern mean that I get 5 days off every couple of weeks thanks to the working time directives, so unless we get them cancelled (which they can't do if you protect your rest days except if a major incident happens like 7/7) then I get to catch up on my lost sleep and have lots of playing about in the sunshine while everyone else is at work. Life's a bitch sometimes.

blueknight said...

Anon 1909,
We are not saying that we have ever acted as vigilantes and we are not condoning it.
The film you refer to is 'Magnum Force', which featured a squad of Police Officers who, under orders from a panel of Court Judges, summarily executed the criminals that had escaped justice on technicalities.
We are discussing the rights wrongs and the reasons behind the general public taking the law into their own hands, rather than relying on the Criminal Justice System.
Have you any comment on that?

bigfattrucker said...

I had my vehicle taken recently by a local scrote. He was identified at the scene, arrested and charged.

It's been made clear to me and the other witnesses, all of us family men with highly physical jobs, that the local PCs know we know where he lives. It's also been made clear that that if we were provably somewhere else, and he had an "accident", well...

Anonymous said...

Blue Knight - MCM is certainly condoning vigilantism. That is the entire subtext of his posting.

As for the public taking the law into their own hands... the police have long ago broken their contract with the public. What's left?

However, as soon as they do look after their own interests because they have been abandoned to their fate by the upholders of the Law, then you spineless bunch of Tin Sheep come around and arrest the true victims on totally fatuous jumped-up charges in order to facilitate easy bullsh*t detections to make your targets and quotas


MCM - thank God you were there on 7/7 keeping a lid on things -

- how many terrorists did you single handedly take out that day? .... or more like it, how many broken tail lights "offences" did you clock up?

Metcountymounty said...

I was off on the day of the attacks and had the 'pleasure' of working for 3 months solid afterwards on cancelled rest days. A lot of the people on my team were first on scene, so don't be a wanker about it or I'll just delete your posts again. Criticism is one thing, being a complete c£nt is another.

As for condoning or not, I've seen it work but I know how it can get out of hand (as in NI) and as such I'm undecided, funnily enough as I said in the first paragraph.

Anonymous said...

Ah, so here it comes. The threats of censorship The thin veneer of false erudtion peels away from you pretty quickly when you're faced with a little criticism -

- fact is, you are at the very bottom of your profession with no hope of progression. (Yes, I know, not because you're unable to progress but because you're so self-sacrificing and want to stay at the sharp end blah blah) Hence the only authority you can exert( or ever likely to be able to exert in your life) is on this little blog of yours.

Time for "risible" again?

Anyway, you really ought to have an opinion and then stick to it. The fact is, you DO condone vigilantism that is the "subtext" and it stands out like a candle in a cave.

Have at least some courage in your convictions - and actually say so?

Any *practical* suggestions as to how a properly controlled version of this kind of summary justice could be dispensed in the real world?

Or are you just a complainer who can offer no real nor practical alternatives?

Metcountymounty said...

slightly better. Criticism is fine, disrespecting and abusing things you know nothing about, or plain outright abuse, will just get deleted.

I don't condone outright vigilantism because I know that there are people who would take it too far. As a one off incident to deal with a very specific and immediate problem then yes I do believe it can work, the problem is making sure that others won't take it too far (ie killing people) which is why I am undecided.

As for a practical suggestion? the SPG (Special Patrol Group in the Met who were the forerunners to the TSG) were feared by criminals. They knew that if they had a go, or were found committing crime then they would get a kicking of a lifetime. Likewise if someone was a career criminal who for whatever reason was not being 'suitably' dealt with by the courts then if seen in the street they would be pulled into the van, given a shoeing and dropped of somewhere else. In the days that the Police were able to deal with criminals robustly, the mere sight of a Police officer on the street posed an element of fear that did keep most criminals away from a given area for fear of being caught. I have known Police officers in very recent times who have considered going back to the old ways and dishing out some summary justice, the problem they face is it would not be tolerated by the media or the courts. Even if the public think it's a good idea, if found out they would be sacked, prosecuted and if found guilty of assault and torture would get a significant prison sentence.

Many people (like you) will think that the police would turn up to their door in an unmarked van to do them over if just one innocent person is incorrectly targeted, that fear and mistrust which would destroy any benefit that physically removing criminals ability to commit crime let alone get out of a chair would create, which is why it could not be a regular tool in the box.

As a one off incident, to deal with specific targets, I think it would work.

There is no fear any more, we can't kick the shit out of them and the courts won't punish them. That is the reason there is so much crime because they don't fear getting caught. Slagging us off and not the entire criminal justice system and government because of the increase in crime just shows a lack of understanding of the situation. I'm not saying we're brilliant because I know for a fact that we are not, but we are by no means the main cause of the increase in crime.

Anonymous said...

.. so all it really boils down to is that you want to be feared.

To be " respected"

Because overall, the years of service have been nothing but a long sequence of frustrations and bitter disappointments.

Because nowadays, even kids in the street blatantly take the p*ss out out of you, to your face - and you can do nothing about it...

... and the pond-life, low IQ, scumbag proper crims, actually p*ss in your faces. Don't they?

And you can still do nothing about it.

This is not how it's *supposed* to be, eh?

If you really can have no sense of self worth in the job you do - then why not change your job?

It's not as if they are over-paying you. Is it?

Metcountymounty said...

well Cuddles, you obviously like living in a world where criminals don't fear the police or the criminal justice system because you're so detached from the reality that the rest of us live in that it doesn't concern you. And yet you complained earlier about the targets and quotas while ignoring the fact that were brought in by people who think that the Police shouldn't be able to deal with criminals harshly, just in case they themselves get caught for something?

don't bother responding, not interested any more.

TheBinarySurfer said...

Metcountymounty - it's called the straw man fallacy. He (the anon abuser) deliberately oversimplifies or misrepresents your position in a statement so he can then refute it.

InnercityPC said...

MCM - why do you humour that anonymous idiot. It must be that Tescos plonker back again who was on the IG site a while ago. I guess there is one advantage, it increases your posts!

Anonymous said...

MCM. You are so right about the world not being fair. I know that I have not deserved all the crap that has been thrown my way by evil gits. So I am very glad and rather grateful for the brave souls who do "fight" with courage to protect others and right the wrongs. Be they in the police force or the armed forces.

I also understand, that on occasions, "extreme justice" is essential when dealing with extreme evil. So, many thanks to those who combat evil people, and also much respect.
God bless them all.
Ve

cuddles crusher said...

I think there should be "organised troll retributive action" lets all give cuddles a good shoeing!

taff said...

Anon 18:36, come on then what is your suggestion to solving the rising crime in this country, the ever increasing violence that decent members of the public are being subjected to. How would you stop the groups of feral shit bags out there giving people random beatings for being different or daring to tell them of. All you have done is slag the police off for their inability to act. So come on, share with us your suggestions.

tesco plonker said...

MCM may I just say it is definately not me who is the troll on this site, i'm sure you can check the IP address to make sure of this.

But, if I may, can I thank innercitypc for remembering me.

His grammar is still awful though!

Metcountymounty said...

cuddles won't be responding, at least not in his normal abusive format anyway. I have no intention of trawling through IP's to block a specific person, mainly because I can't be arsed. As I said before I'll just delete any posts that are pointlessly abusive or just bollocks which is the whole reason for the site moderation. I thought I'd give him another chance to see if he could actually rationalise his views or objections without resorting to the usual 'pigbashing' crap that he got banned from most other sites, but guess what - he didn't!

Going to be busy for the next few days now I've recovered from my sleep deprivation so probably won't be posting until Monday. On a completely separate note I would like to thank all the Portsmouth and Cardiff fans who didn't spectacularly kick off on Saturday after the match (a few did Friday night but not many) I guess the jubilation/disappointment on either side took the fight out of most people and things ended up considerably quieter than we could ever have hoped considering both club's previous!!

Chris said...

MCM,

Just wanted to add a word of encouragement - after all that arguing you had to do, thought you'd appreciate it.

As an MOP, I, like you, think that the police should have more power/free rein to deal with criminals. I'm going to use this idea on my blog as well if you don't mind.

Chris (first comment here I think!)

Happy Met Copper said...

I've been away a few days and have just been catching up on some reading.

I can't believe all the posts from the troll.
He is very quick to comment and abuse without actually offering anything constructive.

As for his comment towards MCM about "how many terrorists did you single handedly take out that day?", refering to the 7/7 atrocity I almost chucked my computer out the window in anger and disgust.
The answer is that none were stopped that day, but how many have been subsequently?
As an officer who was there that day, who had to walk along that underground tunnel and try and save the lives of the badly injured I have to ask whether he would have been able to do the same or if he would have found some words or other excuse to hide behind?
If he was there to do anything to help then I would gladly retract my statement, however I doubt I will have to.

TotallyUn-Pc said...

MCM - you must be bored giving this obnoxious prick the time of day!
Still makes it look like you've had stacks of visits.... he gave up me after a while.... he craves the printing you see, the worst you can do is delete without reference... he really hates that... christ, its like having your own little pet, telling someone how to feed it.... An ugly little pet that your stuck with mind you!!!


Happy Met Copper... thats what he does. He's never left a valid point in over 12 months. his anti police rantings are a classic symptom of the bullying he recieves in the Library when some of the little kids talk too loud and his glasses steam up while he's thumping one out over his computer!

I was in Scotland on 7/7... but a couple of my chaps were called up for the body recovery team. No one can ever say those guys weren't brave... ever!

TotallyUn-Pc said...

On vigilantism - not sure I could administer a beating to someone who didn't need one, or was only acting on information.....

But catch them at it.... well.... those were the days!

Adam said...

Is this serious? Vigilantism is a terrible, terrible idea. No less so if carried out by police in unmarked vans. Has everyone in this country gone mad?

Vigilantism is practically the opposite of the law, in that it pursues the same ends (presumably) but is unstructured, unlimited and performed by unnaccountable individuals. Whereas the law is fundamentally constrained by rules, open to review and people in the legal system are held accountable. But these constraints are fundamental to social justice - not an obstacle to social justice. They allow us to avoid punishing the wrong people and to punish them proportionally to their crimes.

If our legal system isn't robust enough to deter and punish crime justly, then we need to change the structure of our laws, our enforcement and our punishments. We need debate and legislative change. We do not need renegades in balaclavas rounding up Turks.

The suggestion that the law should tolerate, never mind encourage, vigilantes is sick.

Metcountymounty said...

adam - as I said in the second line of the post, there are people who will vehemently argue both sides of the coin. I completely agree with you that the criminal justice system should be fixed, one very quick and effective way I see that happening is by proper significant sentences. It's pretty hard for someone to rack up 50+ convictions before they are 20 years old if they serve 5 years minimum for their first indictable offence. The problem we face is that politicians don't seem to want to do that - even if most people in the country believe that it is the correct answer.

Prawn said...

This is incredibly late but I just couldn't resist pointing out the idiocy of calling somebody's writing skills "remedial" and spelling the same word wrong oneself.